Tony's Chocolonely: On a Mission to Make Chocolate 100% Slave Free

In this episode, we explore how a small challenger brand, Tony's Chocolonely,  through innovation tries to solve the biggest ethical challenge of the chocolate industry -  slavery in the supply chain - and sets new standards for all.

Transcript

00:00.72
Kris
So we' here on the responsible business podcast and today I have the pleasure of having 2 people with me bb beyond fored and pavi ram who both work at Tony's choco lonely and what Tony Cha Colon is is what we will be talking about here today because it's ah. A very interesting organization from a responsible business perspective that in many ways is pushing the envelope in regards to what it means to be a responsible business. We'll dive a lot into that. But before we get to that it be beyond parvey. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

00:36.98
Bibianne
Thank you for ah for inviting us really great of year.

00:37.23
Pavi 
Yeah, thank you for having us.

00:43.28
Kris
Now. So but before we dive into what Tony's is what you are up to and why it would be wonderful to learn a little bit about yourselves and the journeys that you that have brought you from a to b to ah to working at Tony So. ah be beyond your marketing manager. Ah parby you are impact navigator. Ah, which is perhaps less self-explanatory than ah marketing manager. But of course you also do marketing differently than most other companies so we can talk about that as well. But maybe pavey if you would ah share a little bit first. Ah, what is it being an impact navigator and what brought you to where you want. Um.

01:20.59
Pavi 
Yeah I have to say impact navigator is the coolest job title I've ever had. Um, but it is actually exactly that so I navigate our impact so I look to see what is the impact that we're making on the ground. What are the gaps where can we continue to raise the bar where do we need to do better and I navigate our impact strategy. Um on on that on what we continuously find. Um, my background is really monitoring evaluation and research which is also a core function of my job at Tonys. And I started out with the in in India where I'm originally from um in a big market research company with specializing in social and international development research. Um, and then. Took me also then into the international development sector so ngo international development sector and when I moved to the Netherlands seven years ago um Tony's like Tony's is a brand that pops out like it's one of the first brands any new person in the netherlands becomes quite familiar with. And um, yeah, at the time I was working for a dutch ngo and but I'd you know I'd seen Tonys everywhere and I have to admit until I actually saw Tony's I was not aware of the issues in coco which we will get into um in this hour. Um, so.


02:46.78
Pavi 
Ah, so that's that's been my transition like this is the first time I've worked for a company that sells a product and not a service. Um and I just had to see if you know the the impact that the company talked about was was real so when I made the shift from the ngo to the company. It was um yeah, it's just it it.


03:06.41
Pavi 
It was fascinating to see how ah businesses can make a real impact. Um, and I haven't been disappointed once in the three years I've been here.

03:16.20
Kris
Wonderful! Thanks for sharing. Ah bp beyond. Well what's like the headlines in in your journey to becoming marketing manager at Tuni show colon.

03:23.15
Bibianne
Yeah, and first of all, it's interesting because at Tonys we all have a sort of different job title. So I'm like marketing manager but my job title is Princess Kaiatics which is which I found of course the code is job title as well and so that's really cool and I'm here now for one and a half year um, responsible for raising brand awareness and ah the awareness of the issue of modern slavery and illegal child labor in Coco um, in ah in the Netherlands in Belgium and before I worked at a Unilever always in marketing for food brands. And I think I was about working for like 3 years when I realized that you could really make an impact with the big brand. So also within Unilever I tried to ah really understand the the issues in the supply chain that we were working with and try to ah to solve that with the big brands. Um. And and had the luck that it was possible to do that for example with Liptton Icecy where we could move to 100 % recycled recycled be and fully recyclable. So that was an amazing journey and then after working for a couple really cool, big brands and making impact with them I was. Super intrigued of course by Tony's and I want to help to make an impact brand even bigger and so that's what I try to do now and I'm really yeah I'm I'm learning a lot also still from the issues learning a lot from how to measure impact how to communicate about making impact.

04:57.45
Bibianne
And to involve also consumers in making a difference and I think that Tony is really an example of doing that. So really, really happy to join that journey.

05:06.10
Kris
Yeah, amazing and ah measuring impact is certainly also one of the topics that that we're going to discuss and just as you said parvey I had no understanding really of the issues in in the cocoa supply chain and and cocoa slash chocolate industry but on until i. Ah, learned about it via becoming aware of ah Joni Choco colone and of course the the background here is pretty grave right in regards to ah the working conditions and even modern slavery in the in the cocoa industry and and that whole supply chain. And ah and that is what kickstarted ah Tony Choco Lonely as well. So perhaps ah be beyond you could just ah, get us on board to those who are not aware the origin story of Tony's ah why Ah, the organization started and ah the the mission that you own.

05:57.23
Bibianne
Yeah, so um, we say actually that we are an impact brand that makes chocolate because we only exist to make all chocolate 100 % slave free. So therefore our chocolate and our marketing are only a means to achieving that goal and what is exactly most chocolate lovers. They don't. Have a clue that there' is a bit truth behind the cholet industry There are one point five six million children so one and ah over one and a half million kids working illegally and there are at least 30000 instances of of modern slavery on cocoa farms. Um, and that's. Happening in West Africa where 60% of the world's cocoa is coming from and actually the root cause of all of that is poverty because the biggest chocolate companies. They don't pay enough for the cocoa. So farmers have to live below the poverty line and they have no other choice than to use our children or others. To farm their their coco and to make an impact ah to and to make an income for themselves and back in 2001 ceos and leaders of the world's biggest chocolate companies and they signed actually something called the harkin angle protocol. And with this they pledge to to eradicate the worst forms of illegal child labor from their supply chains by 2005. Um, it was a self-binding agreement so it was not a legislation. Um, but in 2005 there was a team of dutch journalists and I wanted to understand.

07:25.69
Bibianne
What has happened since signing that agreement. Um, they were making a documentary of this. Um and in a journey they found that nothing had happened and even more so the big chocolate companies. They really had no interest about talking about the issue and working together to improve the situation. So it was. Not improved and it only got worse and then the journalists they actually they took the matters in their own hands. They want to raise awareness for the for the issue because they understood that not a lot of people knew about that and they undertook a series of ah Pr stunts. And 1 of them was actually making the world's first slave free chocolate bar and back then that was just ah, a fair trade chocolate bar and they sold that while the film the movie Charlie and the chocolate factory was in the cinemas. Um, within actually 2 hours they sold


08:22.18
Bibianne
5000 bars in the amland train station and I realized that there was really something ah something in there and it was yeah the start of ah of the success or at least the start of the brand. Um, and it's called Tony chocoone because Tony is actually. the the english name of ten ten was one of the journalists and it's his lonely fight in the in the chocolate industry and actually seventeen years later we are still continuing that fight trying to make one hundred percent slave free the norm. In chocolate worldwide.

08:58.55
Kris
Yeah, and ah and and that journey is is really interesting and I think also for organizations who are in entire different industries.. There are a lot of principles to learn I think from going on a journey that. Ah, in in many ways you sort of um, innovated that whole process and we'll we'll talk a lot about that and those learning processes from ah starting from absolute scratch in order to try and solve a very big and difficult ah problem here.

09:21.12
Bibianne
Yep.

09:26.68
Bibianne
No.

09:29.82
Kris
Ah, which is what what we'll be talking about I guess for the remainder of our conversation here. So so sort of um so one thing of course that's really interesting about Tony's as an organization as you say you're an impact organization. That then sells a product in order to make that impact so in a way, it's a roundabout business model compared to traditional commercial entities but you are also a commercial entity right.

10:01.90
Bibianne
Yeah, ah yeah, in the end it It can't the one can't go without the other like you can't make impact without having a successful commercial business.


10:11.76
Bibianne
And on the other hand you can be a commercial successful business if you don't make impact or at least that's what I found when you realize that we actually invest 6 point two of our revenues in making impact in the coco industry that means that we have to make that revenue. And the more revenue we make the more impact we could make if you look at our current ah volume in the coke industry. We're sourcing 0.5% of um of the the west african koco via our 5 sourcing principles. And that's of course that's a little bit but we have to grow our own. Um ah bars around the road sell more bars and we also have to attract other parties. Ah in our journey and other parties can be other tooklet companies too. So.


11:02.99
Bibianne
For example, we don't believe in competitors we see other chocolate companies more as partners and we really want to change the the coke industry together with them and therefore for example, we also have the Tony's open chain. Where we make our way of working open for every chocolate company to copy.

11:19.48
Kris
Yeah, and I definitely want to talk a lot about that your open chain and and sort of the innovations you've done also in that whole process there. It's interesting What you are saying here that.

11:36.49
Kris
Ah, you need to make money to have an impact and need to have an impact to make money. It's it's one of those big conversations in you know, traditional commercial business if you like that. Ah you know with the the whole paradigm shift from we are here to make money to our shareholders to. We are seeing this and we talk about responsible business transformation that we're really seeing accelerating now where ah traditionally very commercial organizations. They remain commercial but it's becoming clear and clear to them that they need to also up their game on the. Impact that they are making beyond you know the products offerings that they have but but it's still a big discussion on you know whether you can actually do both or how you merge those things probably having also worked in in Ngos and now you are in a. In an organization that is also commercial. What what's your ah both maybe you have ah hardcore research behind it. But also your experience of this duality here and sort of the the killer algorithm in order to make as much impact as possible.

12:45.77
Pavi 
It's exactly what you said right? So the paradigm shift is happening and I say that like commercial success and sustainability or sustainable initiatives is it's not either or the 2 actually go hand in hand and I always say they go. Quite well hand in hand like sea salt and caramel which is also my favorite Tony's bar um but it's it's no longer. You know we've we've come to a time where it's no longer the responsibility of one actor to do. Good and the other actors just continue business as usual, um, at Tony's we've identified like key players. So we we talk about 5 key players who are who need to work together. Um to make a real change in um, in the sector like to have systemic change. Ah, there needs to be more collaborative action of these different players coming together. So we identified so far from a Tony's point of view. The key players are of course coco farmers because without them. Yeah, there is we we won't wouldn't be having this discussion. Um, but they have a responsibility as well to um to implement certain ethics in their in their production then of course you have chocolate companies um including Tonys but also the bigger chocolate companies and they need to start buying cocoa at.

14:11.18
Pavi 
Ah, in a more equitable way so they need to start topping a higher price for Coco and ah, they really need to work towards creating more equity in the Coco value chain then you have governments of course and they play a key role. They need to make laws that hold corporations accountable to what happens in their supply chains. Um, and they really need to make um a human rights-based approach a legal requirement. Um, then you have retailers retailers have a chance to influence Consumer Demand So by stocking fair um and ethical products in their um on their shelves. Ah, they actually have quite a big influence and then finally you have chocolate fans consumers who have the biggest power of like making responsible buying decisions and all these players really do um, need to come together and their actions interact with each other. Um. And that's when actual real systemic change happens.

15:13.20
Kris
Yeah, and ah and the customers. Well I Want to certainly double down on both government and customers also and this is also where marketing plays a huge role in in the way that you are and creating awareness around this. But maybe before we get to this.? Ah,, let's talk about the the supply chain and the open chain process if you like that you've created and the notion of ensuring traceable Cocoa Beans. So and so from from day one when it was decided from the founders here that we want to. Eradicate slavery in the ah Coco ah chain. Ah, how did they sit about doing this and what was sort of the benchmark back then for doing it.

15:57.96
Bibianne
Perhaps.

15:59.87
Pavi 
Um, yeah, so you know traceability in a supply chain is fundamental so traceability is fundamental to our sourcing strategy knowing where your beans come from under which circumstances they've been grown and by whom is crucial because unless you know. Ah, you can't actually take full responsibility for your supply chain. Um and back so back when Tony's was started and we we knew that we had to find a way to have full traceability in the supply chain and we were talking about it. When traceability in commodities like Coco was considered to be impossible. So i've've I've heard stories about where like you know people were just this laughed laughed at us told us that this is not going to be possible at all and now we have a fully traceable and segregated supply chain. Was it easy no was it doable. Yes, so um, and that's and that's the whole. Um and that's the that's the core of the matter right? like ah having sustainable ethical supply chains traceable supply chains is never easy. There is work that goes as research that goes. Um.


17:15.25
Pavi 
Into it and again there's responsibility that all the different actors in that supply chain need to take um but once they do that once every actor on the supply chain is able to play their part in making or in ensuring that traceable supply chain. It becomes possible.


17:35.12
Pavi 
Um, so we had we. We started by having traceable cocoa beans in 2012 and then by 2016 we also have traceable cocoa butter. So that's a huge step in in an industry where um, we are still. You know, discussing whether traceability is possible or not um and for us traceability is at 3 levels so one is like really the operational traceability are we able to follow the bean to the bar. Um, and and that's important because you need to know again where your beans are coming from. And which and and you need to ensure that those are the beans that end up in your bar chocolate bar as well because we're making this big claim of traceability and then there's traceability really at the um, the environment level but also linked to operational which is you know you know your farmers who you need to know. The farmers who are producing your cocoa and you need to know their farms. So then that's when Gps Polygon mapping of the farms becomes important again mapping is a huge exercise so it requires a lot of effort is um, the the cooperatives also have. Invest in a lot of resources. We invest a lot as well. But it's needed. It's essential for the producers to also the cooperatives to also know what their producers farms look like and then that we use to also ensure that there is no.

19:07.82
Pavi 
Deforestation or risk of deforestation deforestation is a big issue in Koko especially in West Africa where 60% of forests have been lost due to cocoa production and then you have social traceability. So once we know who the producers are to ensure that. There is no child labor on these farms. So then really working with each household to check if there is ah child labor or if there is if there are risks of child labor. Um, and then working to. Together with the families to ensure what the best solution could be again like you know we but bivion talked about the issues in cocoa and you know you talk about ah child labor. No parent wants to send their children. To work on farms as as a mother I can tell you that you know I would much rather have my child go to school and play. Um, so this is really it. It comes from um they driven to it. They're driven into poverty has driven them into these other issues in coco.


20:17.11
Pavi 
Um, so going back then to why traceability is important unless you know you can't take responsibility for your supply chain. Um, and that's how our traceability journey has been.

20:30.24
Kris
And so so there's the there's the whole notion of ah figuring out how to actually do this right? and and and many ways starting from scratch and when you started on this journey of ensuring Traceability. Ah. All the big players in the markets. They were not doing this or they were already doing it at some level or what was sort of the standard then.

20:53.73
Pavi 
Yeah, so when when we started for us. It was really about having that direct relationship with the cooperatives we are sourcing from as well because that that becomes important you need traceability is is not possible in an indirect supply chain. So. Having that direct supply chain having the direct relationship with the cooperatives and then also investing in long-term partnerships with them so bbn talked about our 5 sourcing principles which is basically. How we lead by example by putting human rights at the core of how we do business. So the 5 sourcing principles really addresses the complex issues in cocoa through concrete solutions. So when we talk about the 5 we talk about traceable cocoa beans paying a higher price for cocoa. Um. Working with farmers on quality um, improving quality and productivity on their farms. But also importantly, working directly with cooperatives. Um and working with them for the long term and that becomes important as well. Especially if you're trying to make. Ah, systemic change in the industry if you're trying to set up traceability systems um on the ground um, having that direct relationship also with the cooperatives and and ensuring that this is a long-term partnership also becomes important otherwise it's just again big companies asking.

22:24.91
Pavi 
Farmers to do something instead of ah pulling the responsibility towards themselves.

22:29.68
sunordic
I guess the long-term is is ah really important in regards to both you or or whoever is making the chocolates the investments you need to ensure that the infrastructure works but also the farms I'm guessing would ah need to make investments. In order to be able to be your partner Ryan yeah, and and then you're talking about ah which ah of course is the the other side of this What do? What do you want as a chocolate producer. What do I want as a customer I want slave free chocolate and it's.

22:46.90
Pavi 
Absolutely absolutely you said it.

23:04.59
Kris
You know so bizarre that this is even a conversation right? once you have this knowledge here that that it's actually a thing to market yourself as having selling slavery chocolate right? That is seems like incredibly roundabout in in regards to how. Us who live in ah more privileged parts of the world. Perhaps tend to think about how the world works and about I guess that's 1 thing but then what what? you also mentioned here is ah they don't send their children to work because they want to right? they do so because they have to so um. And so so be beyond figuring figuring that part out actually is in regards to what would it require to enable people to actually ah help solve. Ah the problem here. Ah what was that journey line.

23:55.57
Bibianne
So yeah, so I think as as you mean with helping the people out you mean the Coco farmers right? And yeah, so as as spy explained like there has been a lot of investigation in the real.

24:11.12
Bibianne
Issue and in also the solution so which has been done by our ah by our our colleagues in the past and based on that the 5 sourcing principles were developed so we truly believe that these 5 sourcing principles of 100% Traceability a higher price. Ah. Connect farmers work with them for longer than 5 years and indeed invest in their productivity inequality those 5 they would actually help to get the farmers at least paid enough for the cocoa they sell. And therefore they could also invest for the longer term in their farm and also under kids going to school and their kids going to actually to playgrounds or anything to act like a kit and ah also to help with that sort of because they're still. Ah, need for to raise awareness that children shouldn't work but should go to school and should play. We also work according to the child's ah, labor monitoring re mediation system that we could explain. A lot more about it. But it actually helps to get the children who are currently working um to get them to school and to make them play so actually also ah solve the current situation. So I think those combinations of of solutions because the issue is also ah yeah, like.

25:40.74
Bibianne
It's super complex. So. It also requests a complex set of solutions. It's not just okay, let's do traceability and then we solved it or let's do a program for farmers and then we solved it. No, we really really understand we believe that we understand the issue. So therefore we have a multiple set of of solutions to solve it.

25:59.18
Kris
and um and I guess what we are seeing here is that if you want to be a responsible business and ensuring for instance that ah and you know that the the commodities that you are sourcing that they are. You know, produced under good circumstances and people get living wages and they are not 1 slaves but also don't work under a very poor ah conditions that you need to take like very holistic responsibility in order to actually make that happen because it's a systemic.


26:33.81
Kris
Issue and you need to sort of go to the root cause of this and ah so that's a journey and and I'm guessing many organizations in many different industries would ah be aware of this also and and and work on this to ah you know, ah to to some. Ah, extends and of course it's it's difficult and a um, something that that isn't solved in in a shorter amount of time but then like sort of being the devil's advocate here from a a more traditional market commercial viewpoint. Um, and you might argue that saying well and ah, you can do this if you are a ah boutique niche ah brand that is able to take a a higher price for your products. And thereby channel the extra cost you inevitably will have in order to ensure all of these things put them on your products because you have a a premium product. But if you don't have a premium product and if you need this to scale. Because you are a global brand that is selling millions and millions and millions of pieces of chocolate. For instance, it's a whole different ball game and now I'm not asking you to solve this right now. But I'm curious as to your considerations around this of course also being a.

27:57.80
Kris
Successful organization that is also growing and scaling. How do you think about this. How do you? What do you do about this.

28:02.64
Bibianne
Yeah I think it's ah it's a it's a super interesting question and um, like we don't have the arrogancy that we believe that we can change the chocolate industry by ourselves like as I as you mentioned we only have like 0.5% of current cocoa volume. That's.

28:21.89
Bibianne
So tiny and if we stay tiny. We will never change the chocolate industry so we really believe that we have to work together with other ah big chocolate companies and for those other big chocolate companies. We are only becoming interesting if we are sort of.

28:39.60
Bibianne
Peaking them by becoming bigger and bigger and taking market share of them which makes them actually getting awake to the issue and that they also see that there's a business model in solving the issue whilst being commercially successful and also the same thing happens for like. Pavi explained the the stakeholders within the process and also the retailers. For example, they play a super important role. Um, because we have to also deliver value to Them. So the bigger we get the more interesting we get as a partner for retailers as Well. And also the retailer can help us to actually spread our our mission to the other chocolate manufacturers and they can actually demand from other chocolate companies that they also take action within their own supply chain. So therefore we really see our own growth as a. Sort of our commercial growth as a growth of influence within the chocolate industry and therefore becoming an interesting competitor for for the big ones and therefore maybe in the end they want to work with us that would be our dream. And for retailers we becoming more and more interesting and also for governments we're becoming a more important voice when we are a big well-known Chocolate Company Chocolate Brand ah versus whether we stay like a boutique brand a premium brand same counts for for.

30:08.70
Bibianne
Consumers We Want to make all consumers aware of the issues in in the chocolate Industry. We can't do that if we stay a boutique Premium Brand We have to become known by Mosses. So therefore we also sell in all retailers. We want to be available at as many. Ah, locations as Possible. So therefore we really see see sort of our growth as ah, an accelerator of of change in the Coke industry.


30:32.59
Kris
What are some interesting partnerships that you have created and maybe that you have in the pipeline also or or want to create.

30:41.29
Bibianne
Do you want to elaborate on that Bobby or.

30:45.86
Pavi 
I can't so our our biggest most recent. Well we actually just last week. We announced a ah new processing partner in our ah to Tony's open chain baronei um, so that's ah. It's a different kind of partnership when we have a a processor a big processor join join us as a mission ally and last year of course um, one of our biggest partnerships was when Ben and Jerrys joined Tony's open chain. Um as a mission ally um, and. This is like the perfect coming together of 2 um purpose-d driven brands so Ben and Jerry's as well has been very purpose driven from the start. Um, they're a fellow b corp so this was a perfect match a match made in heaven. Um.

31:36.89
Pavi 
So so exactly that you know like Bb said um together like our mission statement has the word together together will make one hundred percent slaveryy the norman chocolate and that together part is so important because the increasing the the positive impact that we can have through. Tony's open chain which is a collaborative initiative. Um is is so crucial that you know when more companies join us in our way of working then the impact we have can be bigger and then the solutions that we can think of together as well like the the power of um. collective wisdom collective knowledge ah and but most importantly I think what's really important in this um in in Tony's open chain and mission allies working together is that collective sense of purpose. Um, so we really hope that bigger. Brands can as well join us join Tony's open chain. Um, and we've already seen it grow from you know it was just Tony's to now Eight Nine mission allies in a span of 3 years which is which which is quite a.

32:51.34
Pavi 
Gives us a lot of hope.

32:52.85
Kris
Yeah, and and joining the chain does that mean that they ah use the same methods as you that they ah commit to the to the 5 principles or what other demands him? yeah.

33:05.44
Pavi 
It's exactly that so they they saw Coo um via the same 5 sourcing principles. So it's again, a fully traceable supply chain. They're paying a higher price for coco they work they enter into long-term partnerships with the cooperatives. So it's It's the same principles and that that that holistic like when more and more companies start using this holistic way to address the issues in in coco systemic change can can happen I'm I'm optimistic.

33:37.90
Kris
Do you have any ah learnings as in regards to sort of the returns that these new partners are getting you know hard metrics if they exist are always compelling. Ah, to onboard more partners right? Um, So I know it's a relatively recent that a lot of this are there any interesting metrics or you know impact and yeah measurements that you are seeing here that are compelling.

34:02.71
Pavi 
Ah, yeah, they're quite a few actually so you know we we talk about paying a higher price and enabling farmers to earn a living income. Um, recently like we've we've been getting more um more robust data from the ground as well and we've been seeing that at 3 of our longest-term partnership ah partner cooperative. So the ones those cooperatives we've been working with for um I think for for over five years now we see how more farmers are at a living income than in some of our newer cooperatives. So the shows that change change takes time. Um, especially when you're talking about ah a big systemic change like this.

34:49.33
Pavi 
Ah, but you also see how when you buy more coco from these cooperatives in for the long haul. Um, how that really comes back in the impact numbers. We also see that in our longest term partner cooperatives child labor prevalence rate is. Much lower than the industry average. So ah, the the one point five six million children in coco that bb referred to comes from a recent research report that was conducted by um, a university in the us commissioned by the department of labor. And um, so that the 1.56 essentially means 50% around 50% of children are engaged in child labor. So now you look at that and then you look at prevalence rate um in in the cooperatives we've worked with ah for the longest time It's 4 four point four so you see that change. Having said that we see that in the newest partner cooperatives child labour prevalence rate is more or less the same as industry average. Um, so so we are seeing some very positive results. Um, that is really the effect of the long-term.

36:02.87
Pavi 
And the 5 sourcing like the other 4 sourcing principles.

36:04.65
Kris
Yeah, I'm guessing part of the journey here Also when scaling must be that you take in farms and cooperatives where the problems are very big because it's part of the process to you know, help them transition right? and.

36:18.33
Pavi 
Exactly we go to where the problems are in cocoa for all our other ingredients we try to avoid the problems.

36:21.66
Kris
Are. What do your partners tell you that they are getting out of joining the chain the the open chain him.

36:35.92
Pavi 
Ah, yeah, so we actually we we do hear from our mission allies that you know it's less. It's it's less overwhelming for them to also be um, sourcing the way.

36:52.75
Pavi 
Resource when they're doing it together with us. So again this this power of collaboration because um, you know these these are big changes that we're talking about these are also big challenges that we face So when Partners join us and we're all in it together. It becomes less Overwhelming. We're sharing Again. We're sharing the Burden. We're sharing the responsibility. Um, and we're also sharing the impact.

37:20.38
Kris
And often when we talk about Impact. Um, there is another one of those sort of classic I Guess ways of looking at it from commercial organizations I know I've heard it many times in many different industries. There's sort of we should do this because it's the right thing to do but um, we don't know or we don't have any faith in that it is the commercially most successful thing to do. Ah, what?? what? What do you think?? What do you see? What have you learned in regards to you know once again, the the Killer algorithm I think is when we when we have you know when we demonstrate and can measure that we're both making a stronger positive impact at the same time. As we have an increasingly successful commercial organization. That's what most would be looking for that would be the quote unquote easy sell to to go on the not easyiest journey in regards to to making to making an impact. Ah, what are you seeing happening here in regards to you know the trends that are important for you or your own learnings or or your partners. Um.

38:35.70
Bibianne
Yeah I think as you say like a company should always do something because it's the best thing that they could do. However, they also have the responsibility of making creating a sustainable business. So also their business model should make sense.

38:53.31
Bibianne
If you can't make money of being of making impact. Then yeah I guess that's an interesting one because then you don't have a sustainable business. So how much impact can you make on long-term so but I do think that every company. Like existing companies. For example, who are already commercially successful can make impact. Ah and I think they should and at least they should take responsibility for their own their own supply chain the supply chain that they are part of. And therefore that that also creates the responsibility with every company to investigate ah their supply chain understand the issues and also understand how they could help solve them and which role they could play and if they then sort of. Understand that those possible solutions also really start like what I sort of what what strikes me a lot is that when I tell the story of Tony Chuulone to other companies. They're overwhelmed. They're like oh it's amazing and you do this so well. But actually every company could do this. Like as long as as you embrace the the issues in your supply chain instead of walking away from them or closing your eyes from them embrace them and make them part of your business model make them part of your communication take consumers on board take retailers on board like.

40:17.20
Bibianne
Every other stakeholder in your process take them make them. Also co-owner of those issues and and try to solve them and almost every supply chain has issues at today like either b high c o 2 emissions creating a lot of waste. ah ah like

40:34.91
Bibianne
There are so many ah things that we have to solve together as businesses. So I think like what other companies could do just just start make it part of your business model and make sure that you stay ah commercially successful whilst doing the right things.

40:50.25
Kris
Yeah, and I often say that you know being a responsible business has has really become a differentiator for companies but very soon it will be an imperative meaning you won't be rewarded for being responsible but you will be punished if you are not. Because we're seeing this acceleration in pressure if you like from from from all stakeholders. Really whether it be governments or investors or customers etc that is I guess maybe the stick part but that eventually also impacts. The commercial potential of what it is you are doing if you are being punished by the customer for instance for not living up to you know, certain standards of responsibility or what what they find important and and and another thing that you are doing at Tony's

41:38.50
Bibianne
Yeah.

41:43.17
Kris
Ah, remarkably Well I think is is ah the whole notion of marketing and of creating more awareness around your brand but around the issue here. So So be Beyond Maybe talk to us a little bit about you know how you do marketing and why you do it like this and and. And what the results are that you're seeing.

42:04.35
Bibianne
Yeah, so I think from the start Tony has invested a lot in raising awareness of the issue as the as the core objective. So raising awareness of modern slavery and illegal child labor in the coco industry has always been the number. 1 reason why Tony's ah communicates and what we actually see is that in the countries where we started like in the Netherlands but also in Belgium um, we see that the awareness of the issue grows along with the awareness of the brand.

42:38.97
Bibianne
And right now in the Netherlands 70% of the dutch know about the issue in the coco industry and 86% of the people know about Tony's choco only so it's still not on par. But at least we've we've really taken all the people in the Netherlands.

42:56.90
Bibianne
On board of that journey and make them Also co-owner of that of that issue and I think that's the essence of what we try to do within our marketing. That's really what? Ah what we strive for and in that we try to use.

43:11.32
Bibianne
Not the most conventional media channels because we'd rather invest in impact than we rather invest in in like media agencies or big big things where yeah, it actually goes about having your story straight at the beginning and then we believe that our bar is actually our pamphlet. So. Ah, the more people share our chocolate and share our story. Um the more The issue is ah is spread so therefore we invest a lot in direct relationships and so we we host a lot of groups coming to our office or we go somewhere to give a talk therefore we are now in this podcast as Well. To share about about the issues because we believe that our story is so complex that it doesn't fit a proper Poster. We have to really yeah, get people on board of that complex issue and the complex solution as Well. So and and so far it has has worked out really well and.

44:09.82
Bibianne
That's also I guess because our our sort of tone of voice. It's not so serious. It's although the the issue is super serious. We are ah we try to be as yeah as fun as possible because we know that if you.

44:26.12
Bibianne
Try to create a fun movement people want to be where the fun is right? people want to be where the party is so therefore we want to make sort of a party out of this movement to get people on board and and make it fun whilst we're actually creating a solution to a super serious problem.

44:43.22
Kris
You are also in your communication. Um addressing. Well you're addressing the issue of the of the ah supply chain. Um and and and and production right? Ah, but you're also addressing. Ah, the issue of chocolate not being a super healthy product at least beyond a a taste here and there and and and that got me thinking also ah to and I think a very big problem for ah, creating bigger impact which is. Ah, fear of um green washing the whole notion of ah as an organization wanting to make an impact taking certain initiatives now of course green washing is a very real thing you have companies who say they do things they don't really do. Ah, but ah, but there's also the other side of it I think which is we want to do something but as we start doing something ah to make a more positive impact we might actually make mistakes along the way we might actually not achieve what we want to achieve we might actually learn. It wasn't possible. And that you could very easily call out as green washing because you have communicated about it. But then it ends up, you didn't actually do it and so so how how do you tackle this in Tonys in regards to both the actions you take and also how you communicate.

46:10.32
Bibianne
Yeah I think if you ah if you do what we do trying to solve a super complex issue you have to accept that it will. It won't go right? The first time and that's it's a matter. It's a process and it's.

46:26.12
Bibianne
Also a learning process and today people are not used to learning people are are used to learning something in a day and then be perfect. Well, that's not possible if you want to change something so I think that's something we all have to accept and then.

46:42.29
Bibianne
Also if you stay transparent about what you do, then? you can always explain why something is happening. So for example, we had um, we have our annual fare report where we report very transparent about. Cases of child labor that we still find within our supply chain and there was a ah british ah journal which actually actually sort of highlighted those cases and was really calling us out almost of those child labor cases found in our supply chain like they found. 1700 cases at Tony's and they're really trying to make us look bad was actually there was a number that we published ourselves because we think it's important to to raise the awareness that it is still happening although you do your best efforts. Um. Because of so many reasons it is still still almost impossible to be 100 % perfect and then if something is is raised like that we can give the transparent story about why that is the case and it actually gives us a platform to again raise awareness of the issues.

47:56.26
Bibianne
That it still is an issue and therefore I think as long as you see those moments of being calling out as an opportunity actually to raise awareness of the issues again and then it's not that bad. To become sort of cold out for for Green mush and because if you know by heart that you're not doing that then's then that's good, but there's a big but you should know that you don't sort of participate in greenwashing or at least do your try your best efforts. Not to to be greenwashing and and that's I think putting your best efforts in not to do that I think that's something that that companies have to commit to ah when when they want to make a change.

48:43.37
Kris
And and and and I guess when in many organizations a core barrier towards innovation Growth Development transformation change is that fear of failure and ah, which we see translated Also In. And impact initiatives right? again we we're afraid that we won't be able to do what we say we do or what we want to do so therefore we do not and I feel very strongly that we we need to and we need to we need to figure out how to go beyond that and actually.

49:18.80
Kris
And I think to your point this this has to do with transparency and and honest communication and figuring out how how we can build a culture where we actually do that so that it is okay to actually fail. While that doesn't mean we don't take responsibility in trying to solve. Ah really big problems and so so that has to do with culture and so maybe we can talk a little bit about that at our last couple of minutes here because um and so I'm guessing that you've. Your culture is built up around this whole mission that you've been on ah throughout in in many ways I guess. Also if you are an organization like Tony's and an impact organization you have to be better than everybody else because you are stating that you are you know, working towards these. Ah. Very recommendable goals and therefore every single person in the organization needs to be a role model or how do you think about that or and how do you ensure that.

50:19.68
Bibianne
Ah I think it's not that we are like super people at Tony's I think we're just like anyone else. So everyone can be a Tony whether you are working at Tony's or not but I can explain a bit on um, ah sort of the core values that we that we works with. So. Ah, we believe in 4 core values. So an entrepreneurial spirit an outspoken attitude will full push for change and and the cheeky something extra that always makes you smile and those 4 points are part of our internal ah compass actually so. Ah, for example in the recruitment process. We always, um, look for those 4 core elements within um, a character or a personality and we believe that if you have that outspokenness. You will always raise your hand if and you will speak up if you don't agree with something if you have that entrepreneurial spirit. We know that you will go the extra mile to actually bring Tonys where where we want to go two one hundred percent slave free chocolate worldwide. Um, but also that push for change. That's so important and that willful push for change. Um because it requires that you sort of always try to do things differently and better and try to learn and don't get defeated by indeed if something doesn't go as you as you'd like um and in the end.

51:47.38
Bibianne
You always have to sort of stay that cheeky and make make. Ah yeah, try to make people smile along the way because you can be sort of a rebellious activist. But yeah, you do have to get other people like like pavi said it's about to get erness so we have to get other people on board as well.

52:04.90
Bibianne
And those 4 core principles are really sort of those core values they are there are throughout the whole organization Integrated. You will see that in. Ah ah what?? how we do stuff but also for example in the the leaves that we have we have maternity Leaveaf we have paternity leaf. But also we have. Petternity leave so actually people get time off to to take care of their puppies and to raise their puppies because we also believe that. Um yeah, that that of course toies is a company but you also have to feel at home and you have to get the yeah the the.

52:42.52
Bibianne
Freedom within your role to actually be yourself and to to to do how you feel best.

52:47.56
Kris
Wonderful pet earnity. That's the first time I heard that one That's great now. So in closing. Yeah, so pav the echo head.

52:50.63
Pavi 
Yeah, and I think everything now saying but and like to these core values. Everyone is very committed to the mission right? So everyone at tonys. Um, from intern to Ceo from like I t department to impact department. Everyone is committed to the mission and that makes a big difference where everyone you know it's like everyone's eyes on the impact that um needs to be made. So then it really is.

53:23.46
Pavi 
Is a movement almost towards making that change. We're a team and we're a movement.

53:27.97
Kris
Wonderful now. So if people listening here want to investigate how to partner up with Tony's in in different ways. How to go about that.

53:42.64
Bibianne
So yeah, you could best go to our website ah donnystrololy.com and it's an important one because you write actually after the Y there's an s um and it's lonely of ah indeed with being Lonely. So tonyookalonly.com and there you will find all extra Information. You will find annual fare report with our latest impact updates but you will also find ah ways to connect with us.

54:06.65
Kris
Amazing! Fantastic! So with that hereby. Recommend it to anybody listening and where there's 1 relevance in your industry to look into potential partnerships with Tony Shoco Lonely but certainly all the principles to take away from how. Ah, you ah try to change an entire industry through your mission and through innovating on the ways that you are doing things here which I find highly inspirational and therefore we're not thank you so much for for joining me here on the podcast. Thanks so much for being here.

54:40.52
Pavi 
Thanks Chris bye.

54:42.24
Bibianne
Um, thank you Thanks! It was a pleasure.